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Snyder Vetoes Bill That Would Have Allowed Guns in Schools

The bill would have allowed concealed weapons in gun-free zones such as schools and sports arenas.

Michigan Gov. Rick Snyder has vetoed a bill that would have allowed concealed weapons into public schools and sports arena, according to a report on Michigan Public Radio.

The Michigan Legislature passed Senate Bill 59 late last week that would have allowed concealed weapons in gun-free zones, but in the wake of the school shooting in Newtown, CT, many had called for Snyder to veto the legislation.

Both Dearborn legislators—Sen. Morris Hood and Rep. George Darany—voted against the legislation.

David Hecker, Michigan President of American Federation of Teachers, said in a Friday statement, "We’re aghast that this lame duck legislature thinks it’s a good idea to put MORE guns in our schools, let alone places of worship or sports arenas...The House passed SB 59 on Thursday. How dare these lame duck legislators put the safety of students, educators and communities at risk. As our thoughts and prayers are with the families of the victims of today’s tragedy in Connecticut, we call on Governor Snyder to veto this ill-considered bill."

On Monday, Snyder said he would re-evaluate the bill, and on Tuesday, he vetoed it.

bitsy08 December 19, 2012 at 02:37 PM
I just wonder what ol' Rick would have done if there hadn't been a Newton. I believe he would have passed it. This legislature we have now is a disgrace. I think I'll look up who fostered this bill and those that voted for it. We need to publish those names and get those people out of office. It's time we paid more attention to our elected officials and how they vote.
laplateau December 19, 2012 at 03:21 PM
Oh Bitsy.....what is it you don't like about the bill? Is is simply because it woiuld allow persons to carry a gun in schools? Do you have ANY idea of what it takes to get a Concealed Pistol License? Have you ever researched it? I have this feeling you did not. Most peole spout off without thinking at all, as I suspect you are. Anyone applying for a CPL is required to take an 8 hours classroom from a state certified instructor, folllowed by gun range training. Then one has to make application through the Wayne County Sheriff. That requires a lengthy questionarre giving them every conceivable piece of ;personal inforamtion about oneself. Yu cannat have ever been convicted of any felony, as well as a host of many serious misdemanors. If you have any of that on your record, you cannot get a CPL...period! Then you must be photgraphed and finger printed. All that information is then sent to the state police and FBI for criminal background checks to confirm that you have no felonies or misdimeanors. It seesm to me thnat abyone passing all that investigation is a very clean and responsible person and with this new bill, additional training and reange time was required.
laplateau December 19, 2012 at 03:28 PM
In addition Bitsy, just think what might have been prevented had the teachers and administators in the Connecticut school had been able to have a conclealed weapon. The police only respond AFTER the shooting has started and someone has the ability to call 911. By that time the killing has begun. IF the staff had been armend, chances are that this guy could have been taken oiut before he got to 26 people and shot them. People with CPL's are the most responsible in the world. They are thoroughly vetted and even asked if they had ever have any mental treatmnts or committments. The guys that did the shooting in this school took (stole) the guns from his mother who had all the requierd permits. His mom didn't commit the murders..HE DID. I research shows that shooting and murders are done by peole who do not have gun permits...not the ones that do. We have so many gun laws...enforcement oif existing laws is the answer!
Moe December 19, 2012 at 03:44 PM
Bitsy, and the others that are gleeful that this bill was vetoed never bothered to look at what it would have done and reacted out of emotion. The bill Snyder vetoed would have limited who can carry a gun into Schools, etc. Now anyone with a CPL can open carry a gun into schools, this bill would have forbid that. The bill would have allowed CPL holders who go through an extra 8 hours of training and further background checks to carry concealed. The tragedy in Newtown was awful but there is no direct relation to the proposed law in MI. Laws should not be made or vetoed out of emotion. The opponents of this bill acting out of emotion have unwittingly campaigned to allow for the open carry of firearms by people who have not had the extra training.
bitsy08 December 19, 2012 at 03:46 PM
People who "carry" guns don't have the experience it would take, or perhaps the guts, to point a gun at A PERSON and shoot to kill. And how responsible was his mother to have guns in the home with a person with mental problems? And what the HELL was she doing with guns of this caliber? What was her purpose in having them? You can cry all you want and point your finger at me as uninformed insinuating if I was more informed I would have backed this bill. I've been following this bill since it's inception and the police and surrounding Mayors wrote a letter to Snyder asking him to veto. You want to say they're uninformed, too? You can try to undermine my opinion all you want. Just as you're entitled to your opinion, I'm entitled to mine. That's what makes America great. Not its gun laws.
laplateau December 19, 2012 at 06:59 PM
Bitsy----oh Bitsy! There you go again! You should reallly stop writing because it only continues to show your ignorance. Really now...your words "People who "carry" guns don't have the experience it would take, or perhaps the guts, to point a gun at A PERSON and shoot to kill". Now where do you get that definitve information? You think cops have that inate ability? You think that soldiers have that inate ability? The ability comes from someone pointing and shoorting a gun at you. I was an infantryman in Vietnam and when I got there, even though I went through 17 weeks of infantry training with all sorts of deadly weapons, I had no inate ability to shoot someone...untill they started shooting at me and I saw my comrades falling next to me. Same-o same-o with someone shooting at innocents here! It's called the inborn sense of self-survival.
laplateau December 19, 2012 at 07:00 PM
Also, Bitsy... You say "And what the HELL was she doing with guns of this caliber? What was her purpose in having them" That caliber is nothing special. And what was she doing with them...who cares. The UNited Staes Supreme Court and our hundeds of years old Constitution of the United States says she has every right to KEEP AND BEAR ARMS! That's the same kind of right you and all of us have to freedom of religion, freedom of speech, freedom to assembly and freedom of the press, to name only a few. Don't see you hollering about any of those Bitsy!..But, you can becasue you have the freedom of speech,and we all have the right to keep and bear arms too.
laplateau December 19, 2012 at 08:35 PM
I think it's time for a few good thoughts, phrases and quotes regarding guns. :"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity." Freud, 1920 "‘‘Four out of five politicians surveyed prefer unarmed, ignorant peasants.’’ ""...it is better to have a gun and not need it, than to need a gun and not have it." "The rifle itself has no moral stature, since it has no will of its own. Naturally, it may be used by evil men for evil purposes, but there are more good men than evil, and while the latter cannot be persuaded to the path of righteousness by propaganda, they can certainly be corrected by good men with rifles." -Colonel Jeff Cooper "No Free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms.".Thomas Jefferson "The best we can hope for concerning the people at large is that they be properly armed." ...Alexander Hamilton "The people are not to be disarmed of their weapons. They are left in full possession of them."..Zacharia Johnson "The strongest reason for people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government." ...Thomas Jefferson
bitsy08 December 19, 2012 at 09:29 PM
Wow. Love to hear yourself talk, don't ya? Nothing like taking the original meaning of the Constitution and blowing it all out of proportion. What a load of crap! “Owning a handgun doesn't make you armed any more than owning a guitar makes you a musician.” - Jeff Cooper; “Safety is something that happens between your ears, not something you hold in your hands.” - Jeff Cooper. See? I can type quotes to prove my point, too.
Moe December 19, 2012 at 10:09 PM
I would never want to stop people from having an opinion but would hope that those who make laws and those that try to influence them have an informed opinion. Stating that those who carry guns don't have the experience to use them shows lack of knowledge. Of the 2 dozen CPL holders I know most are veterans many with combat experience and some with prior law enforcement training. To qualify to carry a .45 pistol as an army MP I had to shoot 10 rounds, at my MI CPL class I fired 250. Most gun owners I know go to the range at least 4 times a year and shoot 40 -50 rounds each time. Some police departments require their officers to qualify once a year firing 1 or 2 dozen rounds. There was nothing special about the caliber of the guns the woman in CT. had. The 2 handguns were 9mm which is similar to the .38spl which most police consider inadequate to stop an attacker. The rifle was a .223, it is fast shooting but not a "high power" rifle
Lee Jacobsen December 19, 2012 at 11:39 PM
Moe, you are absolutely correct. Anyone with a CPL, including myself, can openly carry into a church, school, etc and not be breaking any law. Is it a smart thing to do? Hardly! Folks would be needlessly upset, and rightly so. Use your common sense. The law would have required, as you said, more training to cover access to those locations with a firearm, and allowed concealment, which prevents panic and questions which could occur now if someone decided to be a walking statement on following the law. I carry a firearm for protection as I own a warehouse in Detroit. All my neighbors in Detroit make my S&W MP 40 look small, they are armed much better than I am. After this email, I am going to the warehouse to see if a truck managed to knock out a door, odds are the truck driver is armed. Police have ignored calls. If the truck guy is still there, what should I do? The police are not responding. I am not dumb enough to confront this guy, if he is still there, one on one. All my neighbors are armed, a few calls, a show of force, the guy will back down. If he is on drugs (common) then one of the neighbors will probably shoot out his tires, and stop him from killing someone on the road. By morning , the truck will be stripped and gone, end of a problem repeated many times all over Detroit, and yet little is said about it, what can you say? Bad things happen in bad neighborhoods. Anyway, one school handgun may have saved lives in CT. We will never know.
Lee Jacobsen December 20, 2012 at 12:04 AM
Bitsy, why would anyone want to just own a gun and not have the desire to shoot it? Of course, there are rare firearms that are 'retired', but there are also guitars that are hung on the wall and displayed. Those are exceptions. I have shot on most battlefields as a historian, re-enactor, and competitor for over 50 years. Cannons, shot them too. Best experience on a battlefield? Dodging ramrods fired by crazy Frenchies during a re-enactment of the Battle of Waterloo on the actual site in Belgium. 15,000 folk participated from all over the world. Only a gun owner that shoots would appreciate someone who epoxy beds his barrel, casts his own ammunition, swages it, weighs each round for consistency, knowing it is the variables that cause a target round to miss dead center, and missing is unacceptable when you are part of a shooting unit or team. Most of my shooting is military black powder, (ever make your own gunpowder Bitsy?), but shooting for the sport of it covers a lot of ground. The show 'Top Shot' covers a lot of bases. Next thing you know, they will outlaw tomahawks. A customer was mugged in my parking lot by 3 thugs, average age 13. I tossed a tomahawk, misjudged and hit him in the back of the head with the handle, sparing his life. He dropped the 45 colt auto and took off. My customer spent 3 weeks in the hospital. As 'lap' says, training and common sense take over when you or your friends are attacked, let's hope you don't have to protect anyone.
laplateau December 20, 2012 at 12:49 AM
Lee...wow, a tomahawk? Really...you should change your name to Chinuchkok, Last of the Mohicans.
laplateau December 20, 2012 at 12:59 AM
So Bitsy..now you are a constitutional lawyer? Gee, those 9 Justices at the Supreme Court must be dying to hear your opinions. But, before spouting off more, showing your ignorance once more, why not read the opinion handed down in District of Columbia v. Heller, 554 U.S. 570 (2008)? You just might be able to be enlightened here, but then again, maybe you just don't have the mental faculties to comprehend it.Let m e try anyway...was a landmark case in which the Supreme Court of the United States held that the Second Amendment to the United States Constitution protects an individual's right to possess a firearm for traditionally lawful purposes, such as self-defense within the home and within federal enclaves. The decision did not address the question of whether the Second Amendment extends beyond federal enclaves to the states,[1] which was addressed later by McDonald v. Chicago (2010). It was the first Supreme Court case in United States history to decide whether the Second Amendment protects an individual right to keep and bear arms for self-defense.[2] Feel any better now Bitsy
Lee Jacobsen December 20, 2012 at 01:41 AM
lap.... you would have seen/remembered me if you attended any of the village Military Musters I was the guy that arrived in a cream 1945 MGTC, with a 3 foot cross section of a tree trunk (target) strapped over the spare tire, dressed in a Loyalist (British) green outfit (Butlers Rangers Caldwells Coy, ) which was active in the Am Revolution in Detroit, later the Rangers moved across the river and founded the town of Amherstburg. Simon Girty was an infamous member, and first mayor. Amherstburg also has the oldest surviving home from Detroit. Turns out a citizen in 1804 got fed up with no service and high taxes, put his home on a raft, and floated it down to Amherstburg. In 1805, Detroit burned to the ground. Anyway, I did all the tomahawk and knife throwing demos until insurance restrictions killed teaching it after 20 years. Some kids were 'naturals'. Good thing I didn't have my S&W then. Technically, according to the law, the kid was fleeing, and it was wrong to fight back. However, he did have a colt 45 chromed automatic in his hand when I threw, which the police confiscated, and it could be construed that I was defending myself, but it would be a stretch....That is one reason I moved the business out of Detroit.... Bitsy does bring up one good point, and a question. If you were at that school, and had a handgun, would you hesitate even a second after hearing the first shots, and they are unmistakable, to use that handgun and shoot back? Bitsy, would you?
laplateau December 20, 2012 at 03:22 PM
Lee...absolutely! Elementary kids being shot by a demented individual? Of course I would take action and not hesitate to pull the trigger, and not with the intent to wound either. That would have been the same reaction/action a police officer would take in a split second if he/she would have been there when the shoorting began. If you read the Michigan law rehgarding concealed carry, the "Castle Doctrine" not only applies to someone breaking into your own home. You do not have to retreat in the face of a deadly threat, either a personal threat, or to another individual who is faced with a deadly threat...meaning you can come to their rescue (or your own)from a mugger, rapist, carjacker, etc. if you see their life is in danger. I would consider this as a duty, especially in response to your question regarding if I had been in that schhool when the shooting began.
J. Allen December 23, 2012 at 04:21 PM
bitty, are you quoting John Dean "Jeff" Cooper, the father of the modern technique of handgun shooting? The same man that believed that the handgun was a "convenient-to-carry stopgap weapon, allowing someone the opportunity to get to a rifle."? Before you go off half-cocked you might consider reading his book, Principles of Personal Defense. And should you be so darning, please pay particular attention to the chapter on "awareness" where he presents his system to "states of readiness". The man believed in being prepared, the mind as well as the body and that what he is referring to in the quotations you site.
J. Allen December 23, 2012 at 04:38 PM
And just as a side note, are you aware that "Jeff" Cooper coined the term "hoplophobia"? It refers to an irrational fear of weapons.
Kamal Makki December 23, 2012 at 07:07 PM
"People who "carry" guns don't have the experience it would take, or perhaps the guts, to point a gun at A PERSON and shoot to kill". This has to the one of the most ignorant things I have ever heard!
vincent December 31, 2012 at 06:42 PM
Then ,That, very person that you speak of get all of the training and certification, goes through the finger printing is cleared by the police and then leaves the gun laying around so a young adult and children can kill each other.
Lee Jacobsen December 31, 2012 at 11:53 PM
Vincent...what are you rambling about? Did the Detroit gun owner have the gun registered? NO. Did he have a permit to carry a concealed weapon and did he do the training. NO. Since the gun owner lacked a permit, and training, he was clueless , besides lacking obvious common sense, and left hsi 45 auto sitting on the floor, which the kid mistook for a game controller. See here. http://americanlivewire.com/3-year-old-boy-shot-himself-in-the-foot-thinking-the-gun-was-a-video-game-controller/ Good thing the kid didn't aim it at the owner of the gun, then Darwin Awards would have another candidate Here are a few notables on the link below.... The guy robbing a gun store full of patrons, including a police officer, by anouncing a hold up and shooting his gun into the ceiling iis classic, but did not win. http://www.seniormag.com/whitt/darwin.htm.
Lee Jacobsen December 31, 2012 at 11:54 PM
Vincent, the gun owner whose gun the 3 yr old shot himself with did not have the gun registered, never took a class, and was clueless, and got arrested. Your comment has no relevance.
vincent January 01, 2013 at 12:45 AM
This is to LJ, These are some additional non relevant words from Vincent Saunders to you LJ . I have no idea who the three year old child is u are talking about. I had not heard about this incident at all. I am referring to law biding citizens that are trained, certified and with a cleared back ground check, who supposedly support the second amendment, train their children to shoot guns and then give them the keys to gun cabinets then say to their kid, I trust you. Here's food for thought Lee, If a law enforcement Officer has to wear a gun in to a school to make his presence known, control the children in the school and protect them from killers LJ, haven't we already failed them. School a not suppose to be our last line of defense against lawful or unlawful guns use.
Lee Jacobsen January 01, 2013 at 01:45 AM
Vincent, I thought you were referring to the 3 yr old Detroit kid who shot himself, thinking the gun lying around was a game controller. . My mistake. However, if you do go to the trouble of taking a class, getting a CPL (concealed pistol license) then the training teaches you to avoid the very acts you are talking about. Does it make any sense to leave a gun 'just lying around' loaded? No! You mention that certified gun owners teach their kids how to shoot guns. What's wrong with that? Teaching includes safety in handling firearms, common sense, range rules and courtesy, and did I mention common sense at least twice? You know your kid. They all mature at different levels, and some never mature. Those immature kids should not have access to guns. When you have unregistered, uncertified guns in the hands of crazy parents, you are asking for trouble. Crazies don't follow the law, don't have common sense, and they are the ones that folks with common sense need to watch out for, and have guns to defend themselves , and the kids , if needed. A police officer is there to protect the kids, on that we agree. Control the kids? That is the parents and teacher's job. Presence? An officer in uniform, wearing a gun, is instant authority, and deserves the repect of everyone. The officer is willing to put his life on the line, and that takes a special person, not all of us have what it takes. Better a last line of defense than none at all Happy New Year for 2013!.
Tom B January 01, 2013 at 01:54 PM
I was a teacher for 33 years and have a CPL. Those states that pass legislation to allow school personnel to conceal will eventually have a problem. Accidental fireings, students being shot by an upset teacher. Who knows what may happen. Then the newspeople will have a real fisco. The only qualified person to carry in our school was a liason officer (policeman). We all knew who he was and why he was there. The gun was usually carried open, not concealed (optional). Most staff felt comfortable with this, not all. If people are armed in schools, everyone will know who they are. It will be no secret to the staff OR the kids. There WILL be problems. No volunteers, principals, teachers, custodians other than a POLICEMAN should be able to carry a weapon in school. NO ONE. Now retired.
Lee Jacobsen January 01, 2013 at 09:17 PM
Tom B, your idea of a recognizable armed person that everyone knows in the school is a good one. Crazies would know they would not have open season on our students. They would have to hit the churches, malls, and theaters instead. What about the idea of also using police professionals who are retired, willing to volunteer at the elementary schools, which usually don't have liason officers.? http://www.thestate.com/2012/12/26/2565179/wednesday-retired-police-can-protect.html#.UONO6RxDG68

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