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I think therefore I am.

When someone says they believe, they stop thinking.   P3
Lee Jacobsen January 17, 2014 at 03:01 AM
What did Ben Franklin say, "those who see by faith, shut the eye of reason". If you were on a plane, diving out of control, would you be comforted by seeing the pilots praying together, or by them reasoning out among themselves what the problem is, or was. Landing in the Potomac was done by a reasonable man with his priorities straight. Reason first, then pray you're right!
Luther's Fan January 21, 2014 at 12:55 PM
No one ever said reason and faith can't work together.
Lee Jacobsen January 21, 2014 at 10:24 PM
Luther, can you give a specific example of reason and faith working together? It needs to be on a higher plane than something like, 'The reason we pass the collection plate is to serve the needs of God's Church etc.' A challenge..... State a problem, then solve it where it can't be done solely by faith, nor reason, but only by using both working together.
Luther's Fan January 22, 2014 at 08:44 AM
Lee, I don't think this is an "either-or versus" a " working together" situation. Suppose a situation handled by reasonable means turns out badly, do we say reason was not used, rather faith. As a former nurse in ICU sometimes all the reason based treatment in the world did not help someone, other times it did. Then there were times we had to admit that we didn't know why someone improved because it wasn't by what we did. Faith to me is an internal belief in something greater being in control, not loss of reason. Faithful people pray but prayer is not the only way to have faith. I have faith that God created reason.
Lee Jacobsen January 22, 2014 at 07:01 PM
Luther, not knowing the reason why something happened the way it did does not give validity to 'faith'. Imagine the year 1930, a green coke bottle tossed out of an airplane over the Australian desert, and some primitives find it. To them, it is an amazing artifact, perhaps something to worship, beautiful color, shape, etc. Since it is empty, they do not understand the bottle's true purpose, the reason for existing. A misconception on their part, not something to put faith in. We have the same unexplained (for now) happenings with events in the modern world, including medical 'miracles'. Transplant organs? Are you a Frankenstein or what?? would have been the perplexed response back in the 50s, until drugs that prevented rejection were developed, making transplants possible. Voila, a miracle. For some, faith is a crutch to get through a bad time, some need it more than others. Some need a lot of faith to get through a day, others need no faith at all. Your comment was..."No one ever said reason and faith can't work together" , I guess, according to you, you answered your own question. . End result... Ben Franklin was right..."Those who see by faith, shut the eye of reason".
Luther's Fan January 22, 2014 at 07:52 PM
Well, I can tell you that I use my God given reason everyday as well as my faith. If you can not see that, I have no issue with you. Everyone should believe what they want. If God willed a plane to land, reason would be the tool given to man to accomplish God's will. Reason's range of influence is whatever has been consigned by God under man's authority. Reason makes right use of that authority by weighing the options and choosing the right one. However, if God willed the plane to crash, reason would be useless and all the effort wasted by reason would be sin because it was attempting to thwart God's will. Thus in the areas of birth and death (God's choices) reason is useless and faith in God alone avails. For without faith, we would not trust that plane crash was a good thing and for our benefit (taking us to heaven), but would despair and die at wit's end (that is, where reason won't help any more).
Lee Jacobsen January 24, 2014 at 08:12 PM
Your response at the end reminds me of the 'Comet' folk in CA, around 32 believers, who wanted to catch a ride to heaven on the Hale-Bopp comet as it passed through our solar system. They each put $3.25 in quarters at the foot of their bed for comet fare. Then they took the koolaid and laid down, waiting for their ride. That is how they were found. So is it good that they went to heaven early? Why shouldn't we all want to get to heaven sooner, rather than later? They certainly had faith that $3.25 was enough fare to get them to Heaven, and there is no one to dispute that fact, correct?
Luther's Fan January 24, 2014 at 09:29 PM
No Lee, they were idiots. God never asked believers to give up common sense. God created us with brains and we should use them. At least in my circle of Lutheran friends we are educated people who have God as a part of our lives. We are however, able to use our minds and talents and be productive members of society. There are times though when all the reason in the world is useless and at those times we have our faith to sustain us. I am thankful for that. Every one has faith. Some in themselves or man in general, and some in Jesus Christ. Still others in various gods or spiritual ideas, but that's another topic completely. As far as the above 'Comet' folk you mentioned, a plane crash may be out of mans control regardless of his talent, but the folk that blindly follow idiot preachers have only themselves to blame.
Lee Jacobsen January 25, 2014 at 02:11 AM
Luther, well said, and we both agree on the mind set of the 'Comet' folk, they did one thing right in the end, removed themselves from the human gene pool, improving the species in their own unique way, no doubt part of God's plan.

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